Workshop: Ask Me Anything About Conversion Optimization

Talia Wolf Conversion Optimization 0 Comments

Talia Wolf

Talia teaches businesses how to plan and execute conversion optimization programs. She runs thousands of AB tests using emotional targeting, real time data and consumer psychology to increase online revenues, engagements and sales.

Talia is a frequent keynote speaker at marketing conferences, teaching conversion optimization and growth on stages such as Google, Unbounce, MozCon, GMIC, CXL live, Search Love, Learn Inbound and many more.

She is the Co-founder & CMO at Banana Splash and was recently listed as one of the most influential voices in conversion optimization.

Who doesn’t want to make more sales? To create a customer experience so smooth, people can’t help but fall for your product?

That’s what conversion optimization really is.

It’s taking every asset you use – whether that’s an email, a landing page or your home page – and transforming it into something your visitors and customers can’t help but click, engage and buy from.

But this is a pretty tall order.

That’s why in this workshop, we focused on answering all your questions about conversion optimization.

We talked about B2B personas and whether they still have a place in marketing.

We tackled customer research, creating engagement and tracking people’s responses to the changes you make…

… And we discussed how to optimize the images you use for conversion. Plus a few other things you don’t want to miss.

Watch the recording below:

Transcript

Buyer personas in B2B

Talia: … question from Stephanie who wants to know about bias personas in the B to B space. Sophia, how do you feel about bia personas? ‘Cause you’ve done a lot of work with B to B companies. And I didn’t introduce you today as I usually do. This is Sophia. She’s the awesome addition to get up [inaudible 00:00:26] and she’s helping us out with all these workshops. Bia personas, that is a very good question Stephanie.

Sophia: Yeah. I think it really depends. Like I feel good about them if they’re really well researched, but I find that a lot of my clients have really, really detailed personas where it tells you where they went to school and how old they are and what gender they are and all these kind of very, very specific things, but I feel like lots of them kinda come from guesses versus like what the customers are actually thinking and feeling and what they need to see in order to convert.

And so you have these very detailed [inaudible 00:01:08], but I find they’re not always an accurate representation. So sometimes when you’re getting [inaudible 00:01:13]. It’s human nature to fill in the gaps and [inaudible 00:01:18] like this. Because somebody I know whose kind of like this, like these things. And so I think it can work as long as you actually use customer interviews and customer surveys to inform those personas and you don’t get to attached to them. What do you think?

Talia: Yeah. We’re getting some chat saying that we can’t hear you to well. So maybe, you might actually have to pick up the phone and talk.

Sophia: Yeah. My zoom has been working awesomely and by that I mean it’s been breaking [inaudible 00:01:52] all the time. Is that better?

Talia: While Sophia tried to fix that, ’cause unfortunately that didn’t fix it. We can still hear you weirdly. Here’s my take on personas.

So I do love the fact that B to B companies, and companies in general, are looking at profiling customers and building those personas because it’s a step in the right direction. My problem with persona is similar to what you just said Sophia, is that a lot of it is kinda divided into two, you’re either gonna get the technical persona, which is this device with geographical location, this is how old they are, this is how much they’re making, so it’s a lot of behavioral data.

And on the other side it really is a lot of guessing, it’s storytelling that we’re kinda telling ourselves or we know one customer or one client, so we kind of paint a whole thing around them, but it’s not really based on real research. So it’s a good direction, but I normally don’t suggest building personas. What I do love to do is what we’ve been talking about this whole month, which is really a lot of customer research. And by doing surveys, by conducting interviews, by message mining, all the things we’ve been talking about and guys if you haven’t had the chance then on our blog we have the recordings for all of that including the transcripts and the worksheets.

But that really helps optimize those personas or profiles of customers. Because you start to see patterns. And in the emotional targeting methodology, which is the methodology that I work with to optimize, it’s less about targeting people who are 25 to 34 or women who are 52 plus, but more about targeting emotional profiles. And to me that makes a lot more sense than actually profiling people according to segments of their age or their geographical location. Because I am right now in Israel, Sophia’s in Texas, and maybe there’s a 10 year old in London that might be feeling the same kind of emotions that we’re feeling or has the same kind of intent or is feeling the same pain and the fact that we’re in different geographical locations or different ages doesn’t actually impact that, doesn’t mean that we need different landing pages.

So I like to profile people according to an emotional profile, what emotions are triggering them, what kind of intent do they have, what is the value proposition that they’re looking for rather than profiles. Hopefully that answered the question. I don’t know. Let me know Stephanie if that made sense. Okay. Sophia, there’s starting to get a lot of questions. So why don’t you filter them through for me.

Sophia: You want me to read them?

Talia: [crosstalk 00:05:05] so I know what to [crosstalk 00:05:06]

Sophia: So the next one we got was from an anonymous attendee. And that one is saying, “So for most of my staff specific to identify emotions. Have you a way better than mine to make them understand what their emotions really are. Sadly she said it’s a cultural issue [inaudible 00:05:24]

Talia: Yeah. I’m just looking at the question ’cause I’m still having a hard time hearing you Sophia. Sorry. 

For most of my staff it’s difficult to identify emotions. Have you a way better than mine to make them understand what really emotions are?

I think I’m gonna need a little more clarification. Are you saying that you’re having a hard time to sell emotional targeting to your team or are you having a hard time identifying those emotions, ’cause those are two different answers. So if you can clarify, that would be great and then we’ll get back to your question soon.

Where do you mine messages for primary customer research?

I see we have a question from [Niha 00:06:14]. Hopefully I pronounced that correctly. Please let me know if I didn’t. Where do you mine messages for primary customer research? So this is a really cool question because we spoke a lot about this last week so if you didn’t have the opportunity yet, definitely go back to last week’s session on the blog and you’ll see the recording for it. But here’s a cool thing about message mining. The most important thing about it is that you are trying to go to places which are neutral, as in they’re not on your website and they’re probably not on your competitors website.

They’re on different communities. So like Facebook groups or maybe they’re in Yelp or maybe they’re on Amazon writing a review or maybe they are, if you’re an e-commerce site then you are going to your competitors websites to see the reviews that people are giving to specific products. So the idea is to go to websites like Quora or different communities that you have or even Twitter and looking for those organic conversations. So people are having conversations about your serve, your solution, your product on the web everywhere. People are comparing you to other people or maybe they’re not even comparing you, maybe you’re completely new to the business or to the industry, but people are talking about this.

And this is where I would go, obviously depending if you’re B to B, if you’re B to C, and what your focus is, but you have different communities and groups. I mean, Facebook groups is the first place you would go to, but also as I said Yelp is a great place to go to. We also have, I don’t know why the name has completely escaped me, but I don’t know. It’s gone. I had an idea. But Amazon is also a great place. So you maybe wanna go to those organic places where the organic conversations are being held. Quora by the way is really good one. It’s just I’m getting … Reddit is also a great, great place.

Quora is really good. I’m just getting a little frustrated because a lot of the people that go into Quora are answering to promote themselves. So it’s very hard to find those real answers, but that’s where I would start. So try and go to those. If it’s a B to B company than websites that review different SASS products and see what people are saying. That’s kind of where I would focus. Okay. Just to answer Gomez’s question. So if you were late, you’re joining us late, unfortunately [inaudible 00:08:57] cannot do the presentation today, even though we have an awesome worksheet, but we will be rescheduling with her redoing it and I will let you know as soon as that is available.

Sophia, do you want … We have a few questions in chat and we have a few questions in Q&A. Do you have-

Sophia: Okay.

Talia: Yeah.

Tracking your forms

Sophia: So hopefully you guys can hear me better now. If not, [inaudible 00:09:25] Not really. I will speak clearly. Okay. So DJ asks, “The best way to track forms. Want to know at what step users drop off.” So apparently they tried [Hotjar 00:09:38], but it doesn’t work with a form of multiple pages. And so he’s just wondering what the best way is.

Talia: That’s a tricky question. It really depends on the technology that you’re using and what you’re using … Is it a full blown funnel? Are you using a landing page builder like lead pages or unbounce or if you’re doing it on your own website? There’s different ways to actually use Google Tag Manager to do it. You’re just gonna need a developer to actually follow you on that. My analyst recently wrote an article just about that. So I’m gonna reach out to her and ask her to send me the link for it and I’ll post it in the show notes when we post this recording.

But you’re right. When you have a form that is over multiple pages, it’s a little hard to kind of track in that type of way. The only way I can currently think about is building a funnel within Google Analytics and then like an e-commerce funnel and then tracking that in terms of drop offs. Plus another way is that every time they move to the next step they submit a part of information so you can go to your backend and look at what is the least field, what’s the field that’s getting the least replies. It’s not a really go to solution, but it’s just a work around.

But it really just depend on your technology. I’m sure there is some really cool tools out there, but you need to kind of know what, if you’re using WordPress or what you’re kind of using, there’s different plug-ins and stuff that you could use. Okay.

How does “Stage of Awareness” change the emotional profile idea?

Sophia: Okay. Great. So next question is from [Netta 00:11:28] and she says, “How does stage of awareness see the emotional [inaudible 00:11:33] Would the two of you and the 10 year old also have the same stage of awareness or would the emotion override differences between pain aware and solution aware?

Talia: That is such a fantastic question. Okay. So stages of awareness to anyone who hasn’t heard of them before, is a way of segmenting people into the different stages that they are in the customer journey. So some people are unaware, for example. They have no idea that they even have a pain or that they are experiencing any issue. And it’s our goal to kind of nudge that pain and make sure … Did your cat just jump behind you? That was so cool. Everyone else saw that, right?

So you’ve got unaware and you’ve pain aware, which are people who are aware that they have a problem or a pain that they need solving, but they don’t really know that it can be solved. You have solution aware people are people who are actively starting to kind of research and find out what solutions are out there. Product aware people are people who are comparing different products. And lastly most aware, which are people who are ready to convert. So to answer your question there [inaudible 00:12:53], it works together.

So if I, myself and the 10 year old, are in different stages of the [inaudible 00:13:01], so I’m product aware and he’s solution aware, the value proposition is still the same. So I am still buying from a certain intent and so is she, the 10 year old. It doesn’t necessarily mean that you have to change your profiles. It means you have to change your value proposition on the page. So obviously if someone is solution aware, you’re not gonna start talking about the pricing that you have or the different modules that they can choose from. The pricing modules, but you can still talk about what matters to them, their intent.

Someone like me who might be most aware or product aware, I still need to get that value proposition that is the same for me and that 10 year old, but the page would be more CTA, more direct into leading you into that conversion. What do you think Sophia? Do you agree or do you have a different take on it?

Sophia: Well I think it is that. I think the emotional thing really overrides the things like age and the other things. Because if you’re hearing the same thing and you’re feeling that same thing from the same place, and that’s what you speak to. I mean, that’s what you buy from in the first place. Not the average [inaudible 00:14:16] But yeah.

Evaluating your images to increase conversions

Talia: All right. Cool. I see we have a question from Steve. Can you talk about images on web landing pages? How should we evaluate them to increase conversions? Okay. This is actually one of my favorite topics. So I don’t know if Steve, if you mean B to B or B to C, but here’s my take. The big thing about images that everyone needs to know is that the hero images sole purpose in its life is to support the copy and the message on the page. So it’s not there to just entertain, it’s not there to look good, it’s not there to promote the product, it’s there to connect people with the message.

Now if you’ve done the work and you have a value proposition up there on your page, the hero image should support that message. So why am I saying this? Because mostly when you look at landing pages and websites, specifically for B to B, but also for B to C, most companies have an image of their product or there solution up front. That’s the focus of it. They have a very hard time choosing different images and we might have sliding images and carousels, but it’s always gonna be photos and images of the product itself or someone using the product.

Unfortunately that doesn’t really help with promoting your message. So when I look at a landing page or when I’m evaluating it and auditing it, I’m really looking at the connection between the image and the messaging. Because if you’re trying to say, and Skype is the first example that I have in mind just because they’ve recently done a redesign. But just a few weeks ago, the main message and we talked about this last week was join millions of people already using Skype. So their entire messaging is about the whole world is using us, everyone’s using Skype, join the community. But their image was a screenshot of what Skype looks like.

And that to me is a message mismatch. Because what you want to do is have an image that supports that message. So maybe a map of the world, maybe showing people from all over the world connecting with each other. So when you’re thinking about increasing conversions for your images, I would run some tests on strategic images versus product centered images. So if you currently have a very product centered or solution centered image on your page, you would want to test that versus a strategic image, which is more trying to portray that emotion, that strategy, and that messaging of yours.

I have an entire session on the, actually we’re gonna do it later on in the year ’cause we’re gonna be talking very extensively about images and colors, but hopefully that gave you a sneak peek into how I look at images and I think it really is important. I’m not saying you don’t have to use images of your products on the website, it is important, but that’s not the first thing. I’ll say this, bottom line is when people land on your landing page or your homepage, you have about three seconds to convince them to stay and start scrolling. So within those three seconds, you have to use your image very wisely, not to show them hey, look, the product looks really cool, but hey, this is the value, this is the essence of what you will be getting.

And that’s why you see a lot of these websites who have couples and people partying and all sorts of stuff. So I’m not saying you have to go all the way to stock photo direction, but do have that in mind that first people see the value, you convince them to stay on the page, “Oh, this sounds interesting.” It connects with your copy and then people start scrolling. Hopefully that answered your question. Okay. So there’s loads of more questions. Sophia, do you want to guide me through some of them?

Creating engagement and retention for your product

Sophia: Yeah. Okay. So we have the next one is from Gabriel. And he says, “I’m about to launch a new version of a product and website. I’m all [inaudible 00:18:58] direct sales people. Sell more and control there micro-businesses. They have around 6,000 users. But very few subscribers, around the world and three languages. And they got this organically. So the question is, how do I touch their hearts and create engagement and retention?”

Talia: I don’t know enough about the product to really give you an answer to that. So you have a mobile app that’s helping sales people really sell more basically. So here’s what I’m gonna advise you to do. I’m gonna ask you to look deeper than there KPI. So salesperson that sits in an office, there KPI might be to make five sales a month, 10, 100, whatever. But go deeper and start thinking about why they care about the sales, why they’re trying to make them. I have done a lot of research around, and I’ve worked with many companies that sell to salespeople. And many times there is an underlying emotion in there of either trying to prove something to themselves that they can be the best, that they can do better than others, that they’re good salespeople, that they can reach targets and even surpass them.

Sometimes it’s an external motivation. Social image, which is what are other people going to think, I want other people to admire me for my skills, I want my managers to admire me. What is it that they’re looking for? Are they salespeople because they want to feel good about themselves? Are they salespeople because they’re trying to live a certain type of life? Go deeper than the, “Oh, we just need to help them,” ’cause many times these kind of apps, what you’ll see, or websites, is like, “Make more money in less time.” Or, “Reach your goals really quickly.” Everyone’s saying that. Everyone. So go deeper into that intent, into why they wanna make those sales, why they care, what struggles do they have in the day-to-day as salespeople, and I’m not talking about getting leads or closing the deal, it’s those struggles that they have internally.

Do they maybe feel insecure? Do they have a good team around them? Who are these people? And then start building those different messages around that and start testing them. That would be my kind of go to. Okay.

Sophia: Yes. I would agree. I think understand that stress is … Because salespeople tend to be so stressed and nobody really shows that much empathy for them and they have to work really hard, their hours are crazy, they go through … It’s a really tough field to be in. Finding that, you got them.

Talia: Yeah. When I think about myself, by the way, ’cause I was a salesperson years and years ago, and it was always interesting because my managers would always say, “What if you hit this target, you’ll get X amount of bonus and you’ll make more money.” And that never, ever motivated me. It was other things. It was just other things that I had in my life that I was motivated by and specifically we were selling something that was really good and I felt proud of. So it made me feel like I was helping people and that was kinda the achievement.

Yeah. As you say, I guess it really is important to just kind of understand the intent behind it and why people are actually making those sales. Okay.

Using emotional targeting when you don’t have a website

Sophia: Cool. We have an awesome question from Nicole.

Talia: Yeah.

Sophia: So she says, “I’d like to know how to target people and find their emotions if the brand doesn’t have a website. They’re doing all their targeting through social media.”

Talia: Oh. Well okay. It’s two different things. There’s finding those emotions and there’s showing those emotions. So finding those emotions and so basically they only have ads, which means I guess they have a landing page on Facebook that’s collecting leads and people are calling them back. I’m gonna take a wild guess there. Please correct me if I’m wrong Nicole. But here’s what I would do. A, there’s a thing called social listening, which is amazing. We actually have an article about this on our blog. I’ll search for it and I’ll throw the link into the chat.

But what’s really cool about it is that there are so many reports and so many things that are happening in social media that you can use to listen and understand. So we spoke about message mining before. Going in Facebook groups, going on Twitter, going into Pinterest, going into all these spaces where people are having organic conversations and listening to them, pinpointing people, and still having interviews with them. Plus I would reach out to all your past clients, people who have already converted and survey them, in order to get a better idea of those emotions. So that’s the research part.

And competitor research, of course. The second part is how to show those emotions and in social media it’s just another place to use. So everything that you do with your ads in terms of messaging, images, and colors and of course the landing page, the messaging that you have on the landing page is what you’re going to use. So I recently did an article slash interview for social media examiner. Will also look for that link somewhere and post that in there, ’cause I give a really, really big drill down into how I use emotion in social media. And I think it will give you all the information that you need. Hopefully.

And I see Sophia is running around and getting all those links. Thank you so much. Okay.

[Naia 00:25:23] says, “Thank you. I missed last weeks session due to time zones.” So yeah, guys, just a reminder, 48 hours or 24 hours after we have anyone of these sessions, everything is live on our website. You go to our blog and there’s a recording, worksheets, templates, everything’s in there including a transcript.

Clint says, “Hotjar has a good form and funnel tracker.” I agree, depending on if it’s on one page or a few. But I do use Hotjar a lot and they’re my go to with everything.

Value propositions and stages of awareness

Let me see, let me see. [Camile 00:26:02]. “Building off that question,” I’m not sure what question ’cause we’ve moved past a few. “What value proposition should you give for someone who is landing on your homepage based on state of awareness?” Okay. The thing about homepages and websites and I think Sophia would definitely be able to contribute to this question to, is that with the homepage there are so many people coming in at so many different stages. The different stages of awareness, ’cause maybe they remember you and now they’re going back and they don’t know what exact page they’re looking for so they go to your homepage.

It could be someone whose ready to convert, it could be someone who randomly arrived on your homepage. So one thing to know is you can’t do it all on the homepage. You can’t speak to everyone, but you can talk about that big value proposition that you have on the homepage and make sure that you’re directing people to the right pages. So if someone’s solution aware, they’ll go to the blog or if someone is product aware they’ll go to the product page or the pricing page and stuff like that. So your homepage is more that hub where you make sure people understand your value proposition.

The biggest things, the value that you have to offer and your directing people to the right direction in the funnel. Whether it’s to convert right now or to find out more, to learn more. That’s how I treat the homepage. What about you Sophia?

Sophia: Yeah. Homepages are nightmares. That’s why … Yeah, I kinda treat it as a big navigation page. So earlier Talia said just have a clear as possible navigation with [inaudible 00:27:53] being your biggest value propositions. And then just help them get to where they need to go.

Talia: Yeah. Agreed.

Sophia: Yeah.

Different types of data to look at when you are looking to increase conversions

Talia: Okay. Cool. Sophia just posted the link to the social listening post plus the one on social media examiner. So hopefully that will definitely help you with social media stuff. Hunter. “When you’re looking to improve the conversation route of a specific page, what data and analytics would you look at to form a hypothesis on how to increase conversions? Assuming it’s related to offer stage. Top of the funnel versus bottom of the funnel. Do you have examples of each? Where on the conversion path do you start?”

Okay. So if I understand correctly, you’re trying to increase engagement, basically, on the site. On the specific page. I’m not sure what engagement looks like because engagement can be commenting and signing up and stuff like that and responding to people and it could also be staying longer on the site, viewing more pages, clicking on different things, opening different tabs. So it really depends. “When you’re looking to improve,” I have to re-read this again. Wait. Hold on. Sophia, maybe you have a take on this? Let’s see. “What data or analytics would you look at to form a hypothesis? Okay.

Well Google Analytics is the first place I would look at. We’re actually working on a client right now that has massive, massive traffic to their website. And our sole purpose is to keep people on the website and to actually engage them. So it’s less about getting them to register, but more about getting them to go more down the rabbit hole and kind of read more articles, respond to people, comment, and perform more actions on the website itself. We’re using Google Analytics to see what are the most prominent pages, the most engaging pages, and seeing the ones where we have the biggest drop off and trying to start moving people from there to there.

I still think it’s a lot to do with the messaging. So when you kind of figure out what people are looking for and the intent and how you want to speak to them, then you start at the upper funnel with kind of getting them into the page, getting them to engage more, asking them to perform more actions. What do you think Sophia?

Sophia: I think that as well. I would also look at the bounce rates and kinda try to understand why they’re leaving the page. And for that you can just put a survey on and [inaudible 00:30:58] survey and ask them why they’re leaving. And also what are they clicking on and what pages they’re going on next. Because again that kinda gives you an idea of what they need to see on that page and what they’re looking for, see if it converts.

Talia: Okay. Cool. I mean hopefully Hunter that answered your question. I’m not sure if we completely understood it. So if we didn’t, please make sure that you reiterate that so we can give you the answer you need.

Getting buy-in from C-suite level execs

We have [Camile 00:31:32]. “Can you give some advice on getting buy-in from C suite level execs in my company to go deeper in value proposition and cater to our clients needs rather than saying, “We do this.” What do you think Sophia? Do you have some advice on that?

Sophia: I think try to get a small win first. Basically run a small test to show them why this matters, why it would increase a conversion, and when you show them that they’re going to make more money, then you’re going to get a more buy-in. Everyone wants to make more money. That’s what they’re there for.

Talia: Agreed. I have a whole session on this in our course, in emotion sells. And the whole premise of it is getting into your managers mind. So when you think about it you’re essentially doing emotional targeting research on your boss. Okay. So what you want to do is figure out their intent, what they care about, what matters to them most. And start presenting your case in that way. So the go to thing is to create a presentation where you explain, “Hey, this is where we are now. These are our results, these are the numbers, this is what we’re seeing. And then this is how we conduct things today. We have a hypothesis and we would like to do X, Y, and zed. This is how it can benefit the company.”

Now one thing that always works is showing them how competitors are doing stuff like that. Because they get an itch for it. Why is a competitor doing something and we aren’t? And yes, presenting it in a way that shows their ROI is really important. I like the idea Sophia of getting that small win. Because when you do something small that you can just prove the concept of it and show, hey, we did a small pole or we did a small survey and we found that this and we used this headline and it increased conversions or it did something that’s totally the way to go, to sell it. One thing to remember that is also important is to include investment.

Like how much will you need to invest into this whole thing in order to get there. So if you’re saying, “Hey, I wanna do conversion optimization research. I wanna do value opposition research, here’s what we’ll need to do. And I’ll need X amount of people, I’ll need this amount of time, I’ll need this amount of budget. It’s gonna take me X amount of time and these are the results that I’m expecting.” So the more granular you get and the more you explain it, the better. Plus maybe also getting them to watch different workshops, sending them different articles about these things and showing them how very big brands in the world are doing some of this stuff would help.

Yeah. That would be my go to. But again, it’s kind of, there’s a lot of things that are in there, but a lot of it is about just getting into your managers head and understanding their emotions. Okay. So I think we have …

Sophia: There’s just one in the Q&A.

Talia: Oh, right.

Sophia: Anonymous explained what they meant. But I’ll grab you that link if you want to read that question.

Identifying customer and visitor emotions

Talia: Yes. Okay. So you’re having trouble identifying emotions. Okay. So great. So you’re saying that your team is in on identifying those emotions, the hard part is knowing how to do it. I know. That’s why I have a course. But also that’s why it’s taken me 10 years to perfect it. There’s no easy way to identify these emotions, but I think that what’s really important is to base it on hard data and facts. Don’t base it on I think that or one customer said this or we saw one review.

But you will feel so much more confident if you have that research. So we said this quite a few times today. Customer surveys, visitor surveys, poles on the website, customer interviews, competitor research, message mining, all the good stuff we’ve been talking about this month, and again it’s all on our blog, will help you identify those emotions. It’s very hard to just obscurely make up emotions. That’s not what you’re supposed to do. It’s based on research. And there’s so many steps to it. But when you start doing the things we’re talking about right now, you will start to see patterns, you will start to see those things that people are continuously saying, people are repeating, people are worried about, that they’re challenged by, that they’re annoyed by, that they hope to find.

All these things will keep repeating themselves and it will be so much easier for you to identify those emotions. And again, you’re not coming up and saying, “Hey, these are the emotions. Done.” It’s testing. It’s constantly saying, “My hypothesis is that if we talk more about their self-image or if we talk more about how their end result would be, ending up with a huge community and loving people around them,” it would increase conversions. So you start with the research and you work your way in and you start testing. So nothings gonna be perfect and it’s not gonna be a quick win, ’cause it isn’t and that’s one of the first thing I tell my students.

It takes time to perfect, but if you’re willing to do the work and you’re willing to do the research, it’s so much easier to do. So yeah, start with the research. Don’t try and guess and take it from there. That would be my suggestion. [Montral 00:38:25] says, “Do you have a preference for the type of emotions you want people to feel? For example, I know fear of loss is a big deal in sales.” Okay. So what you’re actually talking about is really cool Montral because next month, February, is all about psychology. And we’re gonna be talking a lot about cognitive biases and exactly one of those biases is that fear of loss, it’s called loss aversion.

It’s the fact of, it’s basically the idea that we experience a lot more pain when we lose something than happiness when we gain something. So we will do everything in our power to avoid losing out on something. That’s why urgency and scarcity work so well. I don’t have a preference to emotions because it really depends on the customer research that I’m doing. And I could start out a project and say, “Hey. I think that people are motivated by this emotion or by urgency.” And then as I do my research I’ll realize that this is not the type of people that I want to lure in with urgency because they might convert, but then they’ll all charge back or they won’t understand the whole idea.

So it’s not really a matter of what I prefer. I do see various emotional triggers repeat themselves over and over again in almost every project that I work on. But realistically it’s not what you want to use, it’s more about identifying what people care about the most, what their intents are, what their best version of themselves looks like and using that on the page. And you can always use different triggers and emotions and fear and scarcity and urgency, but you have to use it in the right context. So yeah, I mean it does work really well, especially in e-commerce sites, for example.

But it doesn’t work for everyone. So my advice would be to do the research, which I said so many times today. Sorry. And also start testing these kind of small things. And next month we’re gonna be talking all about psychology. In fact next week I’m gonna be talking about how our brain makes decisions. So how we decide to buy stuff. And that’s gonna be really cool. It’s actually not gonna be live, by the way. It’s gonna be pre-recorded because I am traveling. So you will get a link to your inbox with the recording so that you can watch it whenever you’re ready, with a worksheet prepared for you, and everything.

So that’s gonna be really cool. And if you have any questions about how our brain makes decisions and stuff like that you could throw it into the comments section and I will also address those for you guys. So I think I’ve answered all the questions for today. And-

Sophia: Yup.

Talia: Yeah. And I think we can start wrapping up. Hey Dave. I so excited when I see students of mine in the workshops. So excited to see you. Guys, if you have any questions, reach out to us. You will have the recording of this session, surprise Q&A session, in the blog in about 24 hours. And I will let you know when the value proposition session is on because it is so good, we have to do it very soon. And as I said, next week won’t be live. So you don’t have to attend, but I will send you a link to your inbox with everything.

So until then, have a great evening or day or night, wherever you are and stay awesome. Bye.

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