Heatmaps are a very popular tool in the world of conversion optimization. They’re used in reports to support theories and show behavior on a particular page, but are they actually effective? Or do they just look good in a report?

Many tools allow you to see how people behave and engage on your site, so what makes Heatmaps, the right tool to use to increase conversions?

A couple of weeks ago while Dr. David Darmanin, founder of HotJar and I were in Stockholm speaking at Webbdagarna, I grabbed him and asked if he’d be willing to discuss the issues that heatmaps present, the mistakes people make while using them AND how heatmaps should actually be used.

As you’ll see from my interview with David below, MANY people use heatmaps incorrectly.

As David put it: “If you don’t know what you’re looking for in your heatmaps, you’re basically screwed”.

Harsh words, but extremely important ones.

Don’t get me wrong, Clicks, scroll and  attention heatmaps are my go-to when reviewing landing pages or complete funnels for my clients and students. However, I have a set process in place for using these heatmaps and that is how I get immense value in using them. If you don’t have the right process for using heatmaps, you may be using them incorrectly.

Here’s what David and I talk about during our chat:

  1. When Heatmaps become dangerous (and how to avoid it)
  2. How to correctly interpret and validate what you’re seeing on your heatmap
  3. The exact way to use screen recordings to identify specific issues in your funnel and fix them
  4. How to avoid bias analysis of heatmaps
  5. Top mistakes businesses make with their surveys
  6. The top questions David and I use in our polls and surveys

Watch our chat below:

When Heatmaps become dangerous (and how to avoid it)

David Darmanin: Perhaps I can kick off by being a little bit controversial, and saying I think heatmaps using isolation can be very dangerous because they’re pretty much open to interpretation and I’ve seen many teams interpret them. Let’s say base their hypothesis or their interpretation only on that heatmap, which led them to make some serious mistakes. So it’s good to understand that heatmaps of people clicking or a heatmap of people scrolling or moving their mouse are really just one data point and alone can be very dangerous.

Talia Wolf:  I completely agree. We  use heatmaps a lot (full disclosure, I use Hotjar with all my clients and I recommend it to my students too), but I always use it along with other points of data. I use it with Google analytics to see if I can support my hypothesis with that. But I think many people like to show heatmaps because of their visual, they’re easy to show. Showing people a Google analytics report is boring and most people don’t really understand it. However, when you present a page with red dots and other visuals, it feels more compelling and interesting. 

David Darmanin: It’s proof, right? That everyone likes to see proof especially when it’s visual. A heatmap is a very powerful tool especially if you want to sell an idea internally to a team or to a boss or externally to a client so they can prove a point – “Oh you don’t want to remove this thing or you don’t want us to test it?” Or “check this out, so many people are clicking or interacting with that and yet they’re telling us this”. So that’s what I mean by it’s just one data point. I’ve done some sessions and public speaking around heatmaps and I always (because they are visually attractive in everything), lead with them, because it is something that instantly grabs your attention.

However, I always lead with “okay, so you’re seeing this, so let’s say you are seeing many people interacting with our one only elements on the page, this could mean many things… And these are the type of questions you should be asking”.

The most stupid example that I can give (which was our own) is the heatmap we placed on our pricing page quite some time ago. This is a quite an interesting one because we had so many people interacting or hovering around what we call our sample rate, our data collection rates in Hotjar. Our impressions was that this was good, it’s good that there’s a lot of interest in that. But then I noticed something interesting, which was the poll, so the question within the page we were asking, at the time of the heatmap asked, “what’s missing on this page? How can we make it a bit easier?” And everyone was talking about the size cause in Hotjar you also have reports. Everyone was mentioning the size of the reports, both of them are in page views. And it just dawned on me as I’m reading these polls and I’m seeing their behaviors thinking, hold on, do our users think that our data collection rates relates to the report size? Because there was just a big disconnect. So then we did some interviews, spoke to users and we confirmed this was the case. And now since then we are completely revamping the way we explain our pricing, the way it’s done. And we’re at the final stages of this huge process. So, in this case we thought it was going to be like a small change, but actually what came out of it was a business transformation thing.

Talia Wolf: Yeah, I mean it’s going to change every way you explain your products, because as it’s going to say like you’re seeing everyone interacting with that, but maybe that’s because they don’t get it. Or they think it’s something else. Or a few times I’ve seen, there’s like a big red mark everyone is clicking on this specific link on the page like why would people be clicking on that. And then if I look on the page there’s a popup that comes up just there and not so people are interacting. I guess that’s what my next question is. You mentioned, that when you see something and then you try and validate it. So what kind of tools or techniques do you use to validate what you’re seeing? If you see some sort of interaction, how do you verify it or identify what that means?

How to correctly interpret and validate what you’re seeing on your heatmap

David Darmanin: There’s a few different ways in which you can do it.

  1. Obviously speaking to your customers and users is always the best one. It’s literally jumping on, I was going to do this, but it’s more like this nowadays. Jumping on a call with some customers or some users to kind of confirm if your a thinking kind of aligns with their thinking because that’s important.
  2. Something that we also do is, we also do recordings in our Hotjar. So where a heat map is an aggregate of let’s say 1000 people interacting with one page, another interesting way is that you look at a person by person interacting with the whole sequence.

So the idea is that if, let’s say on a product page you’re seeing everyone clicking on one particular area, it’s very effective to then look at the session replay, so you can see those people that are going through that process, how are they behaving before or after. And within that page, that gives you a little bit more empathy, and so it’s quite effective.

Talia Wolf: How many recordings did you need to watch? That’s one thing that people always ask me. Recordings are really cool and you can sit there and look at them, but sometimes it’s hundreds of them. So how do you look at these recordings and make a significant observation that isn’t based on like, “oh, I watched two people and that’s what they do”?

How to use screen recordings to identify specific issues in your funnel and fix them

David Darmanin: I think the biggest challenge people face with number of recordings or session replays is that if you don’t know what you’re looking for, so if you’re just sitting down and saying: “okay, Hotjar show me what I should be looking at”, you’re screwed, out of the box. Because you’re literally looking for a needle in a haystack.

Look at people converting

So my favorite number one thing to do with recordings is to look at people converting. Now, this could be your main goal or it could be a micro conversion. So the main goal being, if I’m ECOMMERCE I’m watching people basically buy. And I actually do this every now, I like to come in and emphasize. And maybe I need to watch that many, this is more the needle in the haystack but at least it’s a smaller haystack.

I’m not looking at everyone abandoning your site, that would be like impossible to find a good cutting. So I like to look at people converting. Having said that, if we’ve identified something in particular, so in our case let’s say we say, okay, we want more people to create inventing surveys, then that’s like micro conversion. So maybe I should look at 100 people creating a survey, that’s going to instantly give me, okay, people are getting stuck on this question or this step, I can say to the team, pretty much half the people that created the survey all got stuck at the last step. And okay, most of them made it through but imagine how many other people are getting stuck. So that’s conversions, micro conversions.

The most important way to use recordings is as we just said, you’ve identified an obstacle or an issue or a specific thing that you want to investigate and you go in to see examples of it. So in our case, the heat map on our pricing page we have people interacting, and then telling us that answer. So it’d like, hold on, I’m connecting the dots yet, let me go in and watch some recordings of people on the pricing page. And there I’m going in with a very specific hypothesis and I’m trying to get empathy around it. That’s where you don’t need to see so many recordings. However, we do get sometimes customers and users that take the approach of, okay, let me watch 1000 recordings since you asked that. If you have that amount of time, then so be it, but it’s not the smartest way to prompt.

Talia Wolf: My approach is a little different:

  1. Look at Google analytics to find leaks in the funnel
  2. Find points that I need to solve
  3. Put heatmaps on those points (or if I already have a heatmap then great)
  4. Go into Hotjar to figure out if what I’m seeing makes sense or how are people interacting there.
  5. Then I look at recordings to say okay, I have a hypothesis that this is happening because of this, but then I might go in and say this is why everyone’s dropping, the link isn’t working or whatever it is.

I find it hard going in blind and just kind of saying, oh, I’ll watch whatever and I’ll see whatever I find. You get lost and I think it probably reduces engagement with heatmaps. You’re watching things and you’re not getting what you came for because you’ve got some idea in your mind of what should be not what it is. 

David Darmanin: Correct. It’s like switching on Netflix and saying okay, let me just start watching every episode until I find the series I like, that’s-

Talia Wolf: Oh, no.

David Darmanin: Imagine that right?

Talia Wolf: That’s like my worst nightmare.

David Darmanin: Exactly, but no one does, wait, maybe some people do that. But probably what you’d want to do is you’d want to rely on some kinds of inputs, like with Netflix would be, what would you recommend or I heard about that. So it’s the same thing, you need to listen. So what are users saying, where do they get stuck? What parts of the site do they hate? That’s the simplest way of looking at it, but those are the inputs. And inputs can be a survey, it could be speaking to your support team. Support team we’re saying, oh, 30% of our tickets around heatmap bugs, it’s like shit let’s … Then you’re looking at session replay of heatmaps with that in mind, let’s see what those bugs are.

How to conduct meaningful and unbiased surveys

Talia Wolf: So you mentioned speaking to your customers and obviously you know this, you also saw me speak at Stockholm, like my biggest thing is talk to your customers, interview them, ask them the right questions, but you don’t … I mean, not everyone can do that. Not everyone can get on the phone or on Skype or whatever to interview their customers and clients, and we both know that that is the best way to just figure out what people are feeling. If they’re hesitant, what their concerns are, what they’re worried about. How can you do that if you can’t, I can’t do it on the phone, I can’t video chat them, how do polls and chat maybe and surveys come into play with that? How can they help?

I believe polls and surveys are probably the next best thing to actually talking to your customers, and figuring out what’s going on and what they need.

David Darmanin: Yeah. I would say if the talking to them is not an option, which is obviously we both agree the best then, then yeah, my big favorite is definitely surveys. So I think polls are quick and easy, so it’s good to make a difference, distinction for anyone who obviously doesn’t know. A poll which is a horrible, a poll, we call it a poll, it’s really like an in page survey, and then there’s maybe a more longer format survey kind of typically the ones you click on the link and it opens a page. So I think in page surveys, the visitor expects it to be short and contextual. So I think those are best used for stuff like how easy was that to do or is there something we can improve in this page? Contextual easy, and I usually don’t like to ask many questions, although it’s effective when someone is landing on a page to say this and why are you here? What’s your biggest challenge?

David Darmanin: Because again, you’re getting them in the moment, so there’s no lag of time. But then the long surveys is my favorite to getting to know the customer to your question. And what I’ve found is the biggest mistake companies make, well actually there’s one even bigger, so the biggest one of it is they don’t do a survey, cause they think who’s going to … Two common objections is no one is going to reply to the survey, no one is going to reply to the survey. And they’re like, you won’t reply to the survey, that doesn’t mean 10% of your user base are not going to, and consistently we see this. The second biggest mistake is they put the work on to the user customer, so they do the survey like why did you come here, like option, option, option, option, cause they don’t want to do any work or so they’re making or other or, that’s a big booboo, you don’t want to be doing that.

I’m a big believer in make it as close to the conversation as possible. Question, open box, let them write whatever they want, like prison. But one thing that I love to do is instead of asking them what is your age with the whatever, and what is your demographic, try and make a conversation. All right, so I like to ask the question, tell us a little bit about yourself and then examples are very effective. So humans are very intelligent, if you give them an example they will follow it. So tell us a bit about yourself, example, I’m a 36 year old female who loves cars, and that’s really effective, or actually I usually put in the role as well, I’m a 36 year old marketing consultant that loves cars. 

And keeping it open like that, the responses you get are amazing, people add color or do it in a different way and that actually allows you to get to know them in a very particular way. So that’s obviously the conversation tone and whatnot. Then obviously there is definitely an art to asking questions. So I would definitely rely on, there’s many people like you and me that have shared their tips about questions, so I think it’s really important to look at, you can’t be too direct, you can’t ask what would make you buy from us? You know what I mean? This is again another common mistake or buy from me.

Why did you leave us? You know what I mean? Like these things don’t work or who is our biggest competitor? You have to kind of build a conversation to get so it still needs to replicate it. And obviously on this chat it’s very difficult to go into that, but I’ll share a couple of interesting examples which are my favorites. If you want to figure out why people love you and who you are and improve your positioning of the product or service or whatnot, then you don’t ask the question, who are we? Then you ask, how would you describe us to a friend? And then again in brackets, please use the exact words you would use.

An ex consultants colleague of mine came up with this question and it was like pure gold, because not only do you find the specific words and the actual words that you should use because your words might not be their words, but also you might get some amazing testimonials from this. So throw in, give us your email if you’re willing to have a chat or follow up, and then you can say, hey, would you like to be featured on our sites? So it’s always how would you kind of have a conversation to get to that golden nugget as opposed to saying, hey, give me the golden nuggets.

Talia Wolf: Yeah. Now, for sure I think you also want to be wary of leading people in the wrong way. You don’t want to ask questions where people are going to-

David Darmanin: Great job.

Talia Wolf: Give you a very specific answer because, or as you said who is our biggest competitor? I see this happening a lot, I mean it’s funny, but you’re giving your customer or your prospect ideas to go and look for other competitors. So you need to know how to ask the question correctly, and then what to ask. And actually that question you mentioned was one of my favorite because one of the questions I love to ask is, and I usually do this with clients, I ask them if it had a personality, how would you describe the business? What would be its personality? And I think it varies in the type of business that you have, but that also is a similar question to what you mentioned, which gets into the actual emotions and how people feel, not think about you but feel about you.

David Darmanin: Agreed and this is the challenge I think, cause you got me thinking probably many people get a little bit scared about surveys because of exactly what we’re talking about. And I think with Hotjar, this is one of our biggest goals for the future, which is how do we break this down to make it easy. So it’s much easier to understand, I have this challenge what question should I ask? Because in reality it’s not that difficult. We need to take this art and make it a little bit into science to help people out because it is a little bit scary to kind of, okay, how do I create the survey? How do I ask the questions? I always like to think about more, if I asked this question, again, you made a very good point, is it leading in any way? And also how is it going to be actionable? Right?

David Darmanin: So, also it’s good to think about every question you ask can then be pivoted against the other replies. So for example, it’s super important that if you’re asking a question like, how likely are you to recommend us to a friend, which is the NPS question, anyone who hasn’t heard about NPS should Google it and learn everything about it. And then asking, thinking, planning ahead to ask a question that then you can look at, okay, what answers do I want to see by that score? If someone did too, it’s like you’re planning the conversation ahead. If someone had to reply to what’s the question that I want them to then also see the answer of. So in that case would be, what’s your least favorite parts of the product? Or obviously you can add some logic, why is it that you gave us a low score? How can we make you increase that score? So it’s like planning the conversation head.

Talia Wolf: That’s interesting because you reminded me of something like, I try not to ask, for example, a question of what is the thing that you least like? But I have a question where I frame and I ask, if I would take away the product today, what would be the one thing that you miss the most? Or what is the one thing that you would be devastated without? And it kind of helps me because it helps me pinpoint what they are actually there for and what they’re using it for. And I find that genuinely, this is true with E-commerce too, but specifically in SAS, we tend to think that people are using our products in a certain way. And then when you start digging in, you learn that people have different ideas and use cases for your product and why they’re using it. So kind of threatening to take the product away and them like, hey, what would you miss the most?

Talia Wolf: I think you spoke about this too, is one of the most powerful questions because suddenly people say, oh, mostly I’d miss your polls, David and you’re like, oh, I thought everyone was using his full heatmaps or whatever. But it’s just an interesting way. And the other thing that you reminded me of is also the voice of customer. You said you could get a testimonial, you could get into people’s heads and I think also the one thing that you learn is the voice of the customer. So they talk about us in a different way than we talk about ourselves. In a company you have like an idea of how things should be said, the names of different things, how things should work, what people want to get from them, but suddenly you might notice that everyone is calling you or describing you in a certain way, and that might mean that you need to go that way and start describing and start using their words rather than your own.

David Darmanin: And that is probably one of the biggest wins we’ve had in the past because usually there is that disconnect, when you’re in the team, in the business, you’re wearing the blinkers and seeing everything from the technology standpoint. In fact, we renamed a few of our features early on because they would call them in such weird names and then we align them to the way our users describe them. You also mentioned competitors. Another, I love the example you gave and I think it’s a similar example. Rather than asking like what other tools did you consider or what are the tools similar to us or God forbid you ask who is our biggest competitor? A much better way of asking it which follows up on what you said is, if you could no longer use first of all the Hotjar anymore, what would you use instead to get the same results? And it’s interesting because for a SAS tool the answer might be overwhelmingly Excel, right?

So then you know that actually you need to position against Excel, not the other SAS company that’s been around as long as you. So I think that’s a very powerful thing to ask as well. But there is a, you notice there is a trend, that usually asking the direct question doesn’t ask. There are exceptions to this, but it’s getting into the, you use the words getting into the mind, and I think that’s the best way to put it.

Talia Wolf: Yeah. One of my favorite questions because we’re just talking about favorite questions is, what were you doing, what was happening in your life that made you such for this company? So we’re talking about Hotjar tell me what was happening in your life that made you such for Hotjar? And this could be a variety of answers. It could be, well, I was using this competitor but it didn’t go well or my manager wants me to show better reports or I need to prove a hypothesis, it could be so many different things. And I think it helps in many ways. It helps in A, identifying that need that people have. So, why are they even on your website? What is that emotional need? Because most of them are not going to say, most of them, I mean some are going to say, whoa Hotjar had better features than the other competitors but it’s not going to be that.

Talia Wolf: It’s going to be like something specific, a pain, something that was bugging them that they needed to such for Hotjar or they needed to use whatever SAS products or whatever, I don’t know, soap or deodorant that they’re buying that led them to that page to get it. And not just as a business, it helps you to think back to where are people coming from, what stage of the awareness are they at, what pains can you tackle, and then you can use that on your homepage or on your pricing page to say like, we know that this is your problem, this is how we can solve it for you.

David Darmanin: Great, couldn’t have said in a better way Talia, well done. Now, it’s true though. This is what we face on a day to basis and it’s surprising to me how many organizations don’t know this yet, which is awesome. It’s a massive opportunity to start thinking in this way, like the example you gave.

How to Use Heatmaps Correctly

Talia Wolf: So, if I’m a marketer and I want to use heatmaps and I want to use them for various reasons, what is the best way? Like how would you define the correct process for using heat maps so that it’s done correctly and in the right way, and you’re not getting biased in terms of looking for what you want and finding the information that you need?

David Darmanin: Yeah. I’m a big fan of, the first thing is … The importance is understanding the limitations of heatmap, that can only show you what’s happening. It can only give you the what, so that’s the most important thing. But I’m a big fan of leading with a heatmap, so by leading I mean, typically there’s a reason why you’re interested in a particular page, it’s high traffic or maybe many people are abandoning. So first off, it’s good to create heatmaps and look at heatmaps but I’d say, what is the intent of why you’re looking at the page, I think that’s important as you look at the heatmap. So I would be worried if someone was just looking at the heatmap because I want to look at the heat map, you know what I mean?

Talia Wolf: Yeah.

David Darmanin: That is usually the big leading factor to this kind of confusion. So my point is it doesn’t necessarily need to be qualitative that gets you there, so you don’t need to do a survey before I heatmap, but at least it’s good to ask yourself, why am I looking at this heatmap today? What is the purpose? Am I looking at it because I want to improve the experience? If so, from which point of view? Is it because we have too much bounce? So it’s good to have what is the purpose. And that allows you to kind of, again, look at it with more purpose, and I would stop at hypothesis 11. And I think it’s good to formulate quite a few, but they should be anchored in the purpose of why you’re seeing it. So let’s say it’s easier to give an example, I’m looking at our homepage heatmap, in my mind I need to think, okay right now we’re at the phase of trying to get more people to sign up, so I know what I’m looking at.

I’m looking at how do people interact with the sign up, what are the factors? Like what are we trying to do to persuade people to sign up? Are people hovering over them at all? Are they clicking on any links contextually within those areas? So essentially I’m saying, is the content we’ve created to persuade people to sign up actually engaging in any way. So see there’s some purpose there. Now I might say, oh crap, no one is actually even making it to this point, and our bounce rate is high so I might say, so maybe are people leaving even before they see our content, and if so maybe is what we’re writing not resonating. See hypothesis, this now allows me to ask and much more like behavior driven poll question in the page.

o now I can ask, what was it that you … Or actually what could we do to persuade you to sign up? Or if you’re looking to sign up, what’s missing on this page? So the behavior allows you to tweak that question to make it a more relevant conversation. So that’s the method I prefer. And then typically we circle back for example sometimes with a test or a change, and then we heatmap that change or the test to see if we’re driving behavioral changes on the page. Now another way of doing it, is to ask a sequence of questions, like through polls and then do a heatmap to see like how did that map back to the heatmap. But I prefer to lead with the heatmap in the beginning, start with what’s happening and then try and get the way to better interpret it.

I would say establish a goal, do the heatmap to understand the what and then move to the questions, the why, so you can better interpret it. Do test changes in heatmap again to see are you actually drive driving behavioral change.

Talia Wolf: Right. I guess at some point, once you’ve looked at the heatmap, you have a goal, you look at the heatmap, then you could set up polls in order to validate what you’re seeing. And then circle-

David Darmanin: Or investigates.

Talia Wolf: Exactly, or investigate, actually investigate is much better than validate because we want to see what this means actually. And then go back, make the change, test it and then obviously put another heatmap on it and see if that’s working. And then also could have polls as you’ll be able to see how has this changed.

David Darmanin: Correct. Then obviously you can fit to record things until there is, well, right but I focus really specifically on the shortest process possible. But again, I would … It’s something that we haven’t built yet in Hotjar, I don’t even know if there’s a tool that does it yet. But what we’re trying to do is, then having the ability to watch recordings of people that gave you a specific response in the poll.

Talia Wolf: Oh wow. Okay.

David Darmanin: Yeah, so that I think is the … Currently you can do it, you can copy and paste like the user ID and harder drive, but I think that could be interesting cause then you can say, okay 50% of the people are actually saying that this sucks, for example, so then let’s go and watch everyone that said that to see what was it that they did. Did they maybe not scroll and then that starts to become little bit more interesting.

Talia Wolf: Right, actually I love that. I mean, the more you can integrate with what’s going on with them and kind of not just, okay you might look at recordings but it will be all those five people who manage to do it really well and you’re like-

David Darmanin: Exactly.

Talia Wolf: There’s no problem here. No, that’s cool. And I think also the integration between Google analytics and being able to kind of pull data from them, because Google analytics is an enigma, no one knows how to use Google analytics, let’s be honest, unless you’re krista Seiden who is amazing.

David Darmanin: That’s true.

Talia Wolf: But it’s hard because things are constantly changing and like heat maps, you go in, you look at what you think you should be looking and you don’t really know what the data means if you’re looking at any context and what to draw from it. So I think that the integration between the heatmaps, the recordings, the data, everything together really does give you a much bigger picture of things. And it might even send you back into Google analytics to start doing some investigation there to see, am I looking at the right numbers, are things being tracked because in Hotjar you can see that this is happening, and I’ve validated it with poles and recordings, but in Google analytics says nothing about this. So it’s kind of like helping each other, I guess optimize maybe, I don’t know.

David Darmanin: Yeah, I think in turn we call that kind of connecting the dots, that’s it. It’s connecting the dots towards having this aha moment. Let’s face it, I don’t know, you’ve probably experienced this. We use the word investigate, it typically happens like most of my biggest wins I had with clients like internally usually come from like the example I gave before, you’ve spoken to our customer, you’ve spoken to sames. Like in our case we had had confusion, I’m going back to the data collection thing, the poll in heatmap we did. We had already had some indicators that it was confusing but then the heatmap and the polls showed us to what degree, right?

Talia Wolf: Yeah.

David Darmanin: So that is the thing, like that’s why you need to be looking at all these different data points and then finally you start connecting the things together. It’s very … These tools are not there to kind of, none of these tools really give you the solution or the full picture, it’s your brain that connects all of these things together. Sherlock Holmes didn’t rely on his magnifying lens, but it was like observation, the lens or the notes or what people said then all come together for one final solution.

Talia Wolf: Yeah, it always brings you to the same bottom line that, this is going to be at my new presentation when I speak in Spain two weeks is that, you can have all the tools in a world, all the machine learning, AI, whatever the buzzword is at that current period of time, at the end of the day, someone like a human being has to write a copy, do the design, and you can’t do that if you don’t understand your customer. If you don’t get them and write for them. If you … Machine learning someone still needs to put in the copy, Someone still needs to put in, there’s still a human pot. You have to be customer driven. You can’t just be data driven, you can’t Just know the data you have to take, as you said, take those additional steps in order to dig deeper and deeper until you really understand what’s going on and where the story is. That you get the what, but why is it happening, and then how can you solve it?

David Darmanin: It’s this new amazing technology called human intelligence, that’s what we’re talking about, which by the way is the only intelligence that exists to date, right?

Talia Wolf: Yes.

David Darmanin: There’s no other intelligence.

Talia Wolf: Yeah. Hopefully, I don’t know. We will get into that.

David Darmanin: See you, see we’re on the same page.

Talia Wolf: Thank you so much for joining us today.

David Darmanin: Sure, this was super fun.

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