If you want to increase conversions on your site, you have to understand what people are doing.
What are they clicking on?
What are they scrolling past?
What are they ignoring completely?
Unless you get to know your visitors and customers, you can’t create a page they’ll love, use or convert to.
Heatmaps can help you take a close look at how people act on each page.
They’re like spy vision for your website without the need to sail down a mountain in a Stradivarius cello case and all that other stuff Bond does to get information.
You can then use that data to create a killer user experience.
Still… like a lot of high-tech kit items, heatmaps get misused all the time.
As Dr. David Darmanin, HotJar’s CEO puts it:
“If you don’t know what you’re looking for in your heatmaps, you’re basically screwed”.
Making mistakes is not fun, especially when you can avoid them by watching this workshop.
Here’s what you don’t want to miss:
- A brief overview of what heatmaps are actually good for and how to use each of the 5 types of heatmaps.
- The 5-step process to using heatmaps correctly and finding meaningful insights
- 6 ways I use heatmaps to increase conversions (with examples of course)
Watch the recording below:
Transcript and slides
This is a lightly edited transcript to make it it easier to read- just incase you’d rather read through than watch!
And if you want to jump to specific sections, here’s your section guide:
- What is a heatmap?
- The different types of heatmaps:
- Heatmap biases (and how to avoid them)
- Getting meaningful insights from heatmaps
Today we’re talking about heatmaps.
Heatmaps are a very important subject to me because I use them with every client and every one of our students when we work on optimizing their websites. So we’re going to dive into all the important stuff.
First of course, what is a heatmap? Why do you need it? What are some types of heatmaps that you can use? We’ll cover all of that (and more.)
About a year ago, I had a conversation with Dr. David Darmanin, Hotjar’s CEO. We talked about the dangers of Heatmaps… There are soo many–> We’ll touch on them briefly in this post and you can catch the full discussion here.
Heatmaps are a great tool to analyze your website and user behavior. However, you do have to approach them with caution because you can make various mistakes.
So just to make sure that everyone’s on the same page, let’s define what a heatmap is.
A heatmap is a visual representation of behavioral data. Its goal is to visualize how people engage with a certain page on your website, what they click on, how much they scroll, and what actions they take.
We use heatmaps to uncover usability issues, UX problems, see how people behave on certain pages and find frictions; pain points that are preventing people from performing certain actions on your page.
Let’s quickly review the types of heatmaps that we have.
Number one is probably the most well-known heatmap and that’s clicks and taps. I say taps because obviously we’re also dealing with mobile.
Clicks and taps heatmaps are maps that show you where visitors are clicking on your page. They commonly look like the one you can see above. The red dots indicate an element on the page that is most clicked and basically the color gets lighter as it records less clicks.
On the top-hand side, towards the right, is the one that’s being clicked the most. I think that’s their blog on Hotjar. But you’ll notice that as less clicks appear that we have less color on them.
That’s how you know what are the most clicked action items, call-to-action buttons and elements on your page.
Click maps can be used to identify issues like people clicking on items that aren’t clickable or elements you’re not really interested in people clicking on and people are clicking on. So ultimately you’ll want to see the most clicks on your call-to-action button. However, you can learn a lot from other elements that people are clicking on.
You can learn intent and interest of people clicking on a certain headline or stuff like that and you’ll also get into that. But we’ll elaborate on this in just a moment. But essentially these are clicks and tap heatmaps.
Scroll maps are just as they sound, a visual representation of the scroll depth on your page. They track how far people scrolled your page and can give you a good indication of where people abandon your page, if the content on your page is laid out correctly, if it requires revisiting, optimizing, if there is something wrong. It’s a really cool thing to use.
Again, it’s always in context. I just put in a screenshot of my scroll map from my homepage and you’ll see it says 75% of people reach to where the yellow line is and yet the fold is just below the green. So it doesn’t really make much sense, but again, you have to have quite a lot of numbers in there and a very long page. My home page is quite short.
I’m a huge fan of these type of heatmaps because engagement heatmaps – which by the way are sometimes referred to as hovermaps – show you how people move their mouse or their finger across the screen.
These types of maps give you a good indication of the way people take in your content. I don’t know about you, but when I read stuff, I tend to highlight different words, sentences and read that way. I don’t know why I do it, but it’s just ingrained in me. However, the primary issue with these kinds of maps is that someone hovering over some element on the page doesn’t necessarily mean they’re looking at it.
You have to remember that these types of maps aren’t 100% reliable. When you think about it, you might be hovering over this element over here, but your eyes are somewhere else. So you do have to use it with something else.
According to Google, there’s a 64% correlation between what you may see in a movement heatmap and what actual eye movement looks like. So that’s why you always want to correlate with the next type of map, which is eye tracking.
This type of map is a little more advanced and it normally requires people come into a sort of a lab or an office or maybe it’s done online and they wear special goggles or glasses to be analyzed. It can also be done via a webcam, which is what most people are doing now.
This type of heatmap tracks eye movements and shows you how people look at your page. I think it’s fascinating. They can show you what people look at during a certain timeframe. So it can show you within three seconds these are the main elements that people look at. With 10 seconds or with 30 seconds on the page, they’re looking at this.
These types of maps are very helpful in identifying fixation on certain elements, showing you the parts of your page that have highest fixation points and how long people looked at a certain element. So basically helping you understand if perhaps something is too complicated or requires a lot of cognitive intake. There’s all sorts of things like that, but I just, I’m always collaborating and comparing different maps together and it really helps understand different things.
What’s interesting here by the way, is that it’s quite well known that the left hand side of website of a page is a blind spot and you can clearly see in this heatmap that most people don’t even see it. So when people add banners, popups, calls to action on the left side of the page or the right side of the page, they tend to be ignored.
While screen recordings aren’t really heatmaps, I’d like to touch on them briefly because they help you understand how people interact with your website.
You can actively see how people use your site, what actions they performed, where they clicked on, and sometimes even identify hesitations or concerns. It’s really, really cool. But one thing to know about screen recording is that you shouldn’t go into them blindly and just watch them, because it creates, basically certain pages. What you need to do is come in and ask certain questions on pages.
You want to come into screen recordings with a certain user behavior question. So for example, you see that most people aren’t clicking on this element, but instead they’re clicking on something else via heatmaps. So you’ll go, via click heatmaps, so you’ll go into a session recording and you’ll look and see, okay, what is actually happening. So you come with a specific question, like I have a hypothesis that people get stuck on this stage of the funnel because of a particular action. Then you watch a few recordings to see if this is actually what’s going on.
If you come in blindly to recordings, you’re going to spend a whole day or two just reviewing recordings and not really knowing what to look at. There’s all sorts of biases and stuff. So make sure that when you, if you are going to use screen recordings, that you come in with some practical questions you want answers to.
So let’s talk about Heatmap biases. I mentioned that I spoke to David last year, so he said, and this is the funniest quote.
“The biggest challenge people face is that if you don’t know what you’re looking for in your Heatmaps, you’re basically screwed because you’re literally looking for a needle in a haystack.”
Heatmaps look great on paper, but they can be very deceiving. If you go in blindly, set up some maps and hope for some insights you might get them. But you could also lose focus, you can fall into subjectivity of your opinion, or you could get lost in all that data. This is with any of the five types of maps that I spoke about.
This is why it’s so important to use heatmaps as part of your research process and not as your only tool.
I’ve seen countless companies use heatmaps blindly and end up applying their own biases and feelings to the analysis of their heatmaps, which makes sense. We have different … we come in with our different opinions and ideas and we think we know something so we apply it to what we’re seeing…
To avoid these biases and misinterpretations of the data, here’s how to use a heatmap correctly and gain meaningful results.
1. Analyze Google Analytics
I would start by analyzing Google Analytics. This is the process that I use when I’m analyzing a heatmap. I look at where heatmaps actually fit in with my customer research.
I find pain points within my funnel. I find the leaks, I find problematic pages, I locate different pages that need optimization.
2. Ask questions
Then I start asking questions.
Related questions could be:
- Are people given all the relevant information that they need to make a decision on this page?
- Is the call-to-action button relevant?
- Can it be seen easily?
All of these types of questions that are something that I would like answers to. So making a list of different questions that will help me better understand why this problem is happening on a page.
3. Set up a heatmap
Then I’m going to set up a heatmap. So then I will go into Hotjar because that’s a tool that I use. But there are many, many other tools you can use. Lucky Orange, you can use Clicktale, you can use Crazy Egg. There’s so many different ones, I just use Hotjar.
But you can set up a heatmap on the page and screen recordings. So when you have those questions, when you know what pages are the problematic pages. So let’s just say that the problematic page is our homepage just as an example, and I’ve asked some relevant questions, I’ve written down some questions that I want answers to. Then I’m going to go into Hotjar and set up that heatmap and screen recording.
4. Analyze the heatmap
Then I’m going to analyze the heatmaps according to the questions that I asked.
5. Compare your heatmap findings to other research
Then I’m going to compare it to other research. So surveys, polls, Google Analytics data, interviews, user testing, all of that good stuff. Everything that we’ve done over the past few weeks, does it correlate? So what I’m seeing in the heatmap, does it correlate with what I’ve seen in other parts of my research? So this is my go-to process when I’m using heatmaps. Never in a silo, and always as part of the bigger picture.
Let’s talk about meaningful insights from heatmaps.
What are people clicking on?
Are people clicking on elements that aren’t clickable? These are insights that are core.
This is an old client of mine. I think I worked with them almost five years ago and they were such an amazing company to work with. Here’s an interesting thing. We set up a heatmap on their homepage and this is what we saw.
If you ignore the arrow on the top and just look at these, you’ll notice very interesting things. People were clicking on these elements. Now that makes sense, right? That makes sense and we think it makes sense, but it doesn’t actually make sense because these items aren’t clickable.
They were just bullet points. But unfortunately they were designed in a way that made people think that these were buttons so people were clicking on them. So this is a core insight to get from a heatmap because then you know something in this design that needs to change. If people think that these elements are clickable, then there’s two things that I get from this.
- I need to change with the designs so they don’t think they’re clickable.
- I need to review what these items are that people are clicking on because apparently this is what people want to reach. This is where people want to go.
So it’s a great insight to get from a heatmap.
What path are people taking?
Another thing you can do is get a better understanding of the path people take. Now we’re definitely going to discuss Google Analytics next week much more in depth. But just to touch on it for a second and even if you’re just getting started with Google Analytics and you don’t have much experience, this is a really easy thing to do.
So, if you notice that a certain page, that a lot of people are clicking on a certain button on your page, you can actually go back to Google Analytics and go to behavior–> site content –> all pages and click on destination URL.
Basically, what you do is you open it up and you open up the navigation summary of that URL and it will show you where people came from and where they went to after clicking on that link.
So it’s actually really, really cool. So we went to get start page and you can see where people came from to get to that page and where they went to. This is really cool because you can analyze people’s behavior.
So if you’re noticing on a Heatmap that people are clicking on something specific and it might not be your call-to-action, so there’s another button there that people are constantly clicking on. You might want to understand, okay, so where do people go after they click on this button? Where are they going to? What are they doing? So this is just a really cool thing you can do and get really cool insights about the path that people take on your website.
What are your most clicked links?
So if you notice that most clicks are happening on the bottom of the page, for example, so you look at your heatmap and you notice that hardly anyone is clicking on the top of your page, but most of the people are clicking on the bottom of the page, so that may indicate that the information people want is actually to far below and you can test moving that content higher on the page to see if it converts.
For example, in this Heatmap, you can see that more people click on the play button and navigation buttons below the fold than the one above it. Then I went to look at this page live and found out that the first image isn’t even a button, but it looks like one. We now have two very interesting insights:
- People are clicking on something that isn’t clickable
- Even though it looks clickable – and it really does look clickable – most people click on the bottom of video on the link below. So it means that in order for them to watch the video they actually need this information. More information. So it’s a really cool way to analyze a Heatmap.
What content are people most interested in?
Another thing you can do is identify the content people are most interested in. You can use the attention map -remember the hovermap – to see which part of the page has been viewed the most. You can locate parts of the page that are getting the most engagement. This will further help you understand what content is engaging, what people care about and what content you should be highlighting on the page.
In the example above, people spend a lot of time hovering over the testimonial and the bullet points.
So in this case we could test having the testimonial higher on the page because this is kind of middle of the page. People also seem to be hovering over the logo on the top left corner which is this over here. So in this case I’d go into Google Analytics and check for a bounce rate and see if the path, and also look at the path that people take and look at a click map, ultimately. Basically understand if many people leave the page if they don’t find it relevant or if there’s something that’s missing in terms of content.
Are you losing your visitor’s attention?
So I really do like engagement maps. Again, as I mentioned, you have to use them with other maps and data. But it’s a cool way to just see how people are interacting with your page, what they’re reading and what they’re interested in.
So over here there’s a number, so most people hovered over here. A lot of people are hovering over this logo, which isn’t actually a logo trust symbol. It’s just interesting behavior.
Another thing you can do is basically find out where you’re losing visitor attention. So scroll maps can help you locate big drop offs on a page. So essentially you’ll see suddenly it goes from red to yellow and then suddenly it’s completely dark. That means that people completely dropped off from your page. Or you might see something really weird where it’s red at the top, no colors in the middle, and then goes back to colors at the bottom.
So there’s all sorts of weird things that can happen with scroll maps. But it’s really interesting to see where … I mean, it could mean two things. It could mean either that the content wasn’t relevant so I left the page, or it could mean I got everything that I needed, all the information that I needed and it was enough so I moved on to the next page. In this example of over here you can see that most people get to this part of the page, but they don’t visit these other products. So it’s just a way for you to know that if you wanted to highlight these products or these are the ones that you wanted to sell, then you might want to switch around a few things.
But again, what I would do is go into Google Analytics and see actual sales for each one of these items and then compare and see what makes sense. If it’s a regular page and on an eCommerce site. So if it’s a landing page and you see something like this, you’ll want to check the conversion rate of that learning page and see is it, does it have a high conversion rate? So is it just because people reach this part of the page and said, “Okay, we’re convinced, let’s just convert.” Or is it because people didn’t find what they were looking for and they left? So kind of always correlating and looking for things that work together.
How do your visitors interact with specific elements?
Last but not least is see how visitors interact with specific elements. So these are screen recordings.
As I mentioned at the beginning, you want to approach these recordings with specific questions in mind, for example:
- What are the biggest points of friction on the page?
- How do people fill out forms?
- What actions are people unable to complete? You’ll notice how fast people skim for your content, which is really cool. So if you want to see how fast people are scrolling, where they pause, what interests them, it really is cool.
Now know that this takes at least half a day, if not more, so come planned and focused at the task in hand. Because again, screen recordings are huge. They can be really problematic, so you want to make sure that you were coming in with these specific questions.
In this example above, you can just see how people use the navigation bar, which is cool. They clicked on product and then they went to a specific dropdown menu item. So they skipped all that stuff. You can see those lines, I won’t tell you what people are doing. You can actually hear mouse clicks and you can see all that really cool thing. So it is a great thing to do.
But again, as I mentioned, always use Heatmaps and other types of scroll maps, engagement maps, eye tracking, eye tracking specifically, and also recordings together with data.
So as I said, first going to Google Analytics and try and come up with, find those pages that are problematic, ask those critical questions to figure out what is causing this issue and only then set up Heatmaps that can answer those questions for you.
Now in terms of tools, if you’re asking, I think I mentioned already that I myself use Hotjar, but I also use Lucky Orange in the past, which I really like. They’re fantastic and they have a really good Heatmaps. I’ve also used Clicktale and also I have used Crazy Egg. So each one of them has pros and cons. It really just depends on what you’re looking for and what type of stuff you use that for.
The reason I use Hotjar is because it also has polls, surveys, and other options that you can use. So it’s an all rounded tool for me. And as I mentioned, they’re good friends, so there’s also that.
So we have, Chuck. “Are you a fan of imagery at the top of the page? The previous slide of nearly all activity in the bottom 50%. I see so many pages with large images that are scenic but don’t sell and I’m not sold on imagery. Are you?”
Chuck, can you clarify which slide that was? Just so I’m 100% sure that I know what you’re talking about, what you’re referring to. Here’s the thing. I think that images, and I love these questions. We’re definitely going to have a whole session, later on in the year just about using persuasive images. But the goal of an image isn’t to just show your product or your service. It’s not there to say, “This is a teapot.” That’s not the point. Images and colors are the thing that people see the most.
It’s the number one thing that people see when they land on your page. That’s what’s going to grab their attention. So you want to actually use the images that you have on your website as strategic images. So it’s not just a feature of the product that you’re selling, but also to create a feeling. So if you want people to feel a certain way, you want to use your images to portray that too, so that when people land on your page, they can feel that emotion. We’ll use words as in copy to make people feel that way also. But the image has to support that strategic emotion.
So I understand when you say that you don’t like the large images that are scenic and all these Shutterstock images essentially that people use. I agree. I don’t think that there’s any reason to use those. But if you can find images that are strategic, they don’t necessarily feature the product or the service, but create a feeling and support your strategy of the page. I highly recommend doing that and not just featuring and showing your product because it can be a very important way to boost conversions. So the image always has to support everything else.
Lassa says, “If you notice pages with low clicks or scrolls in Heatmaps and want to test new elements or copy, how long should you run the test? One week or wait for 2000 visits?”
Okay. So it really depends on the tool that you’re using. I guess you’re talking about Hotjar because Hotjar has 1000, 2000 and 10,000 visits as an option for recording. But my go-to is 2000, normally, if I can’t go for more, I try. It also depends on how deep the problem is and how fast I want to get to data. I prefer to have at least 2000. 1000 to me isn’t enough and it also, it’s just kind of sampling people throughout the day and not really taking a look at the whole thing.
I would go for as many page views as you can. You shouldn’t base your entire strategy on Heatmaps, so you shouldn’t be in a rush to get those results. You can set up a Heatmap for 2000 or 10,000 views and just wait a couple of weeks to get that data. Of course, if you don’t have that traffic, so if you’re not getting 10,000 people a month to your website, there’s no reason to set it to 10,000. So it just depends on the amount of visits that you have and when you want to get the results.
But any, I would take the time to just give the Heatmap time to complete, finish, and give you those data points. If you’re not seeing any clicks, then that would mean that either the page has a very high bounce rate or that it’s people aren’t really convinced. Maybe a lot of the people that you sampled didn’t do anything, but other people are. So I’d always go into Google Analytics and compare that and see what you’re seeing on that page too. If people are moving down the funnel, where are they going to, what are they doing? So just to correlate and make sure that the data that you’re seeing makes sense.
Hunter says, “Do you have any benchmarks or data for scroll depth and CTA placement? For instance, do you want to make sure your CTA is above the 50% drop offline and scroll depth Heatmap?”
I wouldn’t look at it that way. It is a very good question. Here’s what I would want to see. If I’m seeing that there’s a 50% drop off in a certain part of the page, I want to go in and see the conversion of that page. Because as I mentioned before, this could indicate that people received enough information and they’re ready to convert and it could mean that they’re not getting the information that they need.
I wouldn’t look at it as where should the call-to-action button be, because if there’s a drop off, it’s a contact thing. It’s not the button. The button can be placed at the bottom of the page and it would still convert. So as an example, my landing page for emotion sells for our course, we have two variations of it. One has 5000 words. You only get to the actual call-to-action button, I think it’s when you get to 50% of the page or maybe even 70% of the page, there’s no call-to-action beforehand. But you can still see, you can see people either reaching all the way to the call-to-action button or people dropping off beforehand.
The reason for that is that it’s not to do with the call-to-action button. When people aren’t looking for the call-to-action button, they’re reading your content. They’re trying to figure out if this makes sense or not. So I know that there’s this rule/best practice where you have to have the call-to-action above the fold and stuff like that. But I think more importantly you have to get the message through. You have to understand who you’re talking to, what you’re saying, are you mentioning those pain points, are you mentioning the outcomes, the desired outcomes that people want and that’s where you would place the CTA.
So it’s more about where it comes in on the page and it’s less to do is scroll depth. If people aren’t scrolling, I would look at it more as there’s a problem with the content on the page. Now you can look at the clicks on the CTA and see how many people are clicking. You can look at the conversion rate of that page and see what’s going on with it. But I wouldn’t correlate the two. The CTA and scroll. Hopefully that was understandable, but if not, let me know and I’ll try and clarify even more.
“Not a fan of the must be above the fold approach. Do you have the URL for the course or a blog article with the data from it?”
I don’t have a blog article covering the Heatmap from my landing page, but we do have a link to our landing page, I think. So if we have someone on the emotion sells landing page, if someone’s in there, will look for that for you in there so you can see it.
Albert says, “So rule of thumb, do you move hot content higher up on the page?”
I don’t think there’s a rule of thumb ever, unfortunately, because things really change and it depends on the context of what you’re answering. For example, if you’re seeing certain parts of the page that are getting a ton of clicks, you might figure out that those aren’t things you really want people to click on, right? So maybe you don’t want to highlight those. If you’re seeing that a lot of the buttons are being clicked are at the bottom of the page, then yes, maybe you do want to move that up. But it’s not just the clicks that matter, it’s also the engagement and it’s also the scroll depth.
So if people stop at a certain page or if people, everyone’s getting all the way to the bottom of the page, but they are not clicking on the call-to-action button, then maybe something was lost. So there’s no real rule of thumb. But yes, you can tell that when there’s certain content, not call-to-action ones, but certain content that people are clicking on, they’re hovering above, that they’re playing with from the screen recordings or there’s all sorts of stuff like that, then I would definitely consider moving that content above the fold and testing it to see if it gets more conversions.
Neha says, “From your experience, do people click on videos, words or images more? Which elements capture a visitor’s eye, mouse, finger first, and which elements do they move on, off to afterwards?”
I don’t think I can answer that. I mean in real, like with data supporting it. Videos are obviously something that call for an action and the older people prefer to prefer to click on a video. But it also depends if you’re showing the time of the video. So if I’m on a page, and again, this is so subjective because if I’m on a page and there’s a video there, but it shows this video is two minutes, I’m not going to click on that video. If it’s a 10 second video, or 15 second video, 30 second video, then that would make me want to click on it more.
But it also depends on where it is on the page, the video, the image, the words, the call-to-action, everything’s about where it is in context. Nothing works alone. So videos don’t work alone. Copy doesn’t work alone. Design doesn’t work alone. Call-to-action buttons don’t work alone. Everything has to support each other and work together. So you’re never going to see like, “Oh, hands down, it’s always videos, or hands down, it’s always call-to-action buttons, or copy.”
So there isn’t a rule of thumb on this either, unfortunately. I would constantly think about the context of everything and the placement of all the elements around each other. Hopefully that is helpful because I know I’m just saying, “It depend.” Which is a very annoying answer in conversion optimization.
Alexandra says, “I’m curious to hear your opinion on clarity of value proposition with both copy and image.”
Your opinion on clarity of value proposition. Alexandra, I’m going to need you to unpack that for me and maybe explain the question because I’m not really sure, but I understand it completely.
Terence says, “So a page that has minimal content wouldn’t benefit from a Heatmap?”
Not really. Depends what you’re trying to learn. If you have minimal content, I would ask, “Why do you have minimal content?” I don’t think you should have minimal content. I think I’ve seen the landing page that you’re referring to and I’m going to be talking about it obviously and telling you that you need to add a ton more content to it.
But yes, if you don’t have a lot of content on that page, I would definitely consider what type of Heatmap you want to add to it. Then also if you’re going to add a Heatmap to it to support your hypothesis, then just make sure that you’re coming with a list of questions and other data points that you’re referring to through, that the Heatmaps’ just going to prove it or disprove what you’re trying to say. So don’t just come and buy me, let’s just put a Heatmap on it and see what happens. But come in with, so I’ve proven this and this, I’ve done this research, I’ve spoken to these people, this is what I think, let’s place a Heatmap and see if that helps too. That’s what I would go and do with that.
Alexandra clarifies, “What would you prioritize? Clear visual, or copy, or both? Which is more important in your opinion? Clear visual that communicates the value prop. Clear copy that communicates the value prop?”
Both, together. There’s no one or the other. You have to be good at both. When you do voice of customer research, when you are speaking to people, when you’re doing interviews, we have a fantastic workshop on that with Nikki a couple of weeks ago on how to do interviews.
So when you do interviews and you’re doing surveys, when you reach that value prop and you say, “Okay, I think this is the value prop that I want to test.” Everything on the page has to correlate to that and focus on that value prop. If you’re only going to use copy to do it, you might get some results, but it’s not going to be the best result. If you’re only using images, you could get a certain result but not the best results. So just like I was explaining before, everything works together and you should definitely try and correlate it together.
Now I would start with the copy because the copy dictates everything else on the page. So you maybe create a wire frame because from your customer interviews and your surveys, you now know what people need to see, read and take in on a page. So that’s it. This is a landing page.
So I’d outline the whole page and understand what is it that I want to say, what’s the content hierarchy, what step leads to the next and then I would introduce the design around it. But the design supports the copies. So everything is supporting that value proposition that you’re trying to make. Not everyone has designers. It’s not always easy. So you always start anyway with the copy because that’s what’s going to dictate everything for you, but you have to do the work. You have to do both together.
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